Jordan Buckner (00:00)
In business as in life, success is often measured by external markers like revenue milestones, funding raise, or number of retail doors. But what about those personal success markers, your own personal journey as you are going through the process of life and building a business? How do we build a business around the life that we want to live? So today I invited my friend Howie Sher who's a

founder and advisor of JPG Resources, who's built his career around helping other entrepreneurs. So we want to explore how founders really define success on their own terms and why that's critical for long-term sustainability and how it can both reshape their businesses and their lives. Howie welcome back to the podcast.

Howie Sher (00:46)
Jordan, it's always great to see you again. I wanna say hello to the Foodbevy community and appreciate the feedback I've gotten after joining you a few times on these podcasts. It's why I'm doing what I'm doing and why it brings me so much joy and honor to be able to work with the startup community and you having me back again, I appreciate it.

Jordan Buckner (01:05)
Of course, of course. So let's jump into this topic. I want to talk about success and I think we'll talk about the context of CPG founders, but we're all human and it just relates to just one aspect of our life. And so I love for you to share, you you talk about this notion between being satisfied and being content and understanding, you know, the difference and how to think about that.

Howie Sher (01:32)
Sure, and I'm just going to speak for me. think the words are very different. When I feel satisfied, I think I'm referring to, ⁓ OK, I don't need to keep going. And when I hear content, I hear, OK, I accept where I am now, but to continue. And those two words to me feel, and I believe they have the same root for a reason. And I think content,

let's keep going, recognize certain wins, honor them, but don't get stuck there and think that's where we're stopping. Those are building blocks. And to accept the wins with the same humility that you should with something that doesn't go so well, I think I have this saying.

Of course, any of my sayings, my family gets worn out from them, but the most unused gear shift in a car these days with automatic is neutral. And if we could find a middle ground in our mind and not be in drive in the older cars, had overdrive, a worthless button, or reverse going backwards in our minds, just having a level of contentment of where we are that we're solid there.

That's where we're most solid and neutral. You can go backwards or forwards with a little nudge being in neutral. So let's work at that.

Jordan Buckner (02:43)
I love that. You know, when I first started my brand TeaSquares I came in thinking about all these brands who had multi-million dollar exits. And honestly, I thought, hey, I'm going to come in, make a product. And my goal is to sell it in five years for hundreds of millions of dollars. Right? Like that was what success looked like for me without ever being in the industry, without ever has starting a business before that.

And I quickly learned that's not how the industry operates. That's really the tiny, tiny, tiny exception of brands who actually find success that way through a large acquisition. And there had to be this other way of determining like what success looked like for me. And so that really changed over that five year journey. And I had to redefine what success.

looked like for me personally and for the business. And I think for me, it was more around how can I build a journey that I want to live instead of finding, you know, quote, success as the end point, a destination is how can I build enjoyment, contentment, happiness along the way, no matter where it ended up. And so, you know, that was a really big turning point for me. I'm kind of curious.

from you and your conversations, what have you kind of heard success look like for CPG founders and has that changed over time?

Howie Sher (04:07)
⁓ everybody shows up with their own perspective and I want to just talk about it from a life perspective and then come back to the question, which I'm going to ask you to repeat. Sure. ⁓ so I can be specific, ⁓ but when I hear you talking about building a CPG brand and getting married to the idea, you're married. You have a child. Okay. So.

Jordan Buckner (04:27)
I am. Two.

Howie Sher (04:30)
When you got engaged, did you have a vision of what marriage was all about and what it would look like? Certain landmarks in the relationship at three, five, when you chose in our blessed to have children, did you think about that? And has your mindset changed?

Jordan Buckner (04:45)
That was definitely a change.

Howie Sher (04:46)
Okay, and so when the child arrives and you're blessed to have your first child and then there's the decision to have the next if you're so blessed to have another when you have the first is it different than the second?

Jordan Buckner (04:58)
It was different.

Howie Sher (04:59)
Okay, so let's bring that back to giving birth to a CPG company and having this idea of what's it all about. And so many show up meeting with me with the greatest recipe in the world and everybody that tastes it's blown away. It's functional on top of it. And I'm making it in a community kitchen and now I want to co-manufacture.

And I say, this is great, but I think you're skipping a step. We need to commercialize that formula to scale. What's your one to three year run rate look like? What sort of minimum orders do you have financially in the bank to be able to pay for? And what? You're asking me how do founders typically show up? Like this.

skipping steps, having an idea of how it works. And I smile and I accept their perspective and share to the best of my ability, gracefully to the best of my ability. This is how, if you want to take a strategic approach, that word strategy, you even step back from finding a co-manufacturer or developing it on the bench to scale.

with a commercialized formula as to what's the strategy? What's your omni-channel approach? What's your plan there? So does that really answer your question about what defines success? How about what defines creation? Before we even can define what success, too often we get lost in the end before we lean into the process of the creation of.

the understanding of what it's going to take and the programs that again, I'm deeply involved with. However, the founders show up saying the best ones are I know what I don't know. And they lean forward into their virtual meeting. And I feel great that through my experiences, I can help them formulate what

their choosing to find a success and reminding them that that's going to evolve like every other component of their business. It's going to evolve, that definition of success.

Jordan Buckner (07:04)
Yeah, you know, one thing that I also see is right, as you mentioned with the marriage analogy and having kids, that vision that you have originally will change for everyone over time. And there are some businesses and some products that are, and founders that are designed for nationally run businesses, but there's success, satisfaction, contentment in running regional businesses and running.

⁓ business that are smaller in nature by the scale of like, not in every single grocery store across the country, but we are focused in like where our customers are. you know, there's a couple of businesses that I follow and founders who are like, Hey, I want to run a bootstrap business. And this idea of having a lifestyle business is becoming more and more talked about in the CPG space. And I think that's a good thing. I think.

for a couple years, especially when I was getting started, lifestyle business was almost a dirty word. It was what VCs told you when they wouldn't invest in your business. Like, oh, maybe, like this isn't good enough for us, but maybe it's like a little lifestyle business that you can run. And that was told to me, I had an investor who said like, hey Jordan, your TeaSquares is a business, not for us, like maybe as a lifestyle business. And you should be happy doing that. But it felt derogatory. It felt like I was being put down.

And I kind of sought out to try to prove them wrong while I learned in my own journey that like, no, actually why wouldn't I want a positive, happy lifestyle and a business that could support that and really kind of change my thinking around it? Because when I took that high growth VC backed approach, it ended up burning me out. It was misaligned with my own values.

Howie Sher (08:47)
Yeah, one of my favorite examples over the last year of a founder I had the pleasure to work with is a retired military CPG founder that she shows up in the first three minutes of the conversation. I just want to be clear. I don't want to be a national brand. I just want to be happy. I'd love to own the state of Michigan, on each channel, multiple different

lanes, preserves, but I've made over a hundred different varieties. And I'm proud of the fact that at any moment I might think of the next one and don't want to get pigeonholed into that it has to be three to five or that's too many. And are you okay with that? I said, I love the boldness. You have clearly defined what you want to be and her why was

because that's what was going to make her happy. And she owned that and never wavered. Through the whole time in our founder cohort program, I'd see her face and I knew she wasn't going to move off of it. But I also know that she's wise enough if she gets some suggestions of the how-to in any of the disciplines that we cover, if it supports the foundation and core of why she's doing this in the first place. And I don't want to get away from that when we talk about defining success.

We have to have a core meaning to our why, that's personal to us, that's going to differ from most people that are getting into this. But the end game is going to evolve if you're doing it with a healthy approach.

Jordan Buckner (10:12)
I love that. I love that she came in having that vision for what she wanted to do. And frankly, I think one of the biggest things that leads people astray in this industry is that for a lot of products in order to be, call it like profitable or to be financially sustainable, it requires a certain level of volume of sales. And

I see this path where either that volume can come from velocity, how many units you're selling to the same person or the same store, or it can come from expansion to the number of doors and the best products.

Howie Sher (10:47)
profitability part from early, early, especially these days, no one's going to come in from the outside unless you're profitable at this point.

Jordan Buckner (10:55)
Yeah, I think that's very true too. And so when I see those like founders come in, they start selling their product completely new. No one's heard of it. Maybe it's a little bit more unique, provides some education and they run into that problem of like, ⁓ I'm only selling a couple units per store and I'm not able to bring enough revenue. And they jumped to, I just need to sell into more stores then. But then that problem just expands and then that's I need more.

money, need VC investment because I'm going to run out of money to keep this going and it almost snowballs. Instead of going the other way of saying, how can I maximize my sales in this one store, tweak my product, tweak my positioning. So instead of selling one unit per week, I'm selling five and then 10 and then maybe 15 to the, in this one store to grow my business. And I think that kind of fork in the road of needing the money and cash quicker than

than later is what leads a lot of people astray. So, you know, how do you kind of balance those external pressures of being told you have to raise capital or get on more retailer shelves with maybe founders who desire to run a little bit of a smaller business? Do you run into that or have founders who are like, hey, I feel this pressure that I have to raise money or I have to do a large retailer launch?

Howie Sher (12:19)
Well, when they show up with real intention and a need, and want to hear what you have to offer as far as feedback, that's when I believe you're going to get the most out of the interaction. You can just see through body language. It's not just what they say or how they say it. It's just, they willing to accept the experiences not only that I've had, but I've

been privy to and exposed to from many founders in food and beverage, and not just as a founder myself, but also from the other side of the desk as a buyer, supermarket owner, operator, that.

Rarely, rarely are you going to find a retail partner for your products that are just waiting for you to show up, that have a wide open space and a hot growing commodity class. It's that pressure that you need to take a step back and add some humility to your being confident about what you're selling and what your brand is all about.

The amount of competition that exists has to be the edge to the pool that you don't want to hit your head on. You just have to allow and be open to perspective of others that have been there. And I don't show up with saying, if you don't do it this way, you're not going to make it. I don't. Because I know that I've seen many different ways of how people get there.

You can't get overwhelmed or stuck on any one point or any one point in time to the build and it's continuing, it's always evolving. It's never ending. And you have to be willing to hear the different approaches to address any challenge that comes upon you, especially when it's a critical point. If the yield out of the

co-manufacturers facility is not where it needs to be and you need to make adjustments so you don't have so much loss. If your package is overpriced for the total unit cost, you need to make some adjustments as much as you love your packaging supplier. If that's the best they can do, you need to seek and find a cost point that's going to fit into the total package.

Jordan Buckner (14:27)
You know, as founders are trying to figure out how they want to grow and build their business, right? It's very natural to look at others around you to both learn and educate yourself. But it also creates this effect of founders feeling stuck when they're comparing themselves to others because

Howie Sher (14:43)
this is

Jordan Buckner (14:44)
So right like how do you recommend?

Howie Sher (14:46)
We're

showing up in social media. Yeah. You and I are in this conversation. In the doom scrolling, when you're looking at your competitors, you're just seeing the shiny, fluffy perfection. You're not being privy to the challenge that they're facing as well or broke through the barriers of those pain points. You're just seeing what you believe to be is they're doing it better than you.

You can learn from your competitors. I did it. I compared and contrast. But when you stop concentrating on who you are and what your brand's all about and doing that to the best of your ability and the brand's ability to show up, you're getting lost in the, whether it's my generation and what was Facebook powerful that now is IG and TikTok.

And just seeing what's doing great in your own mind, you're thinking, and you're only concentrating on what's perfect, what's succeeding, who's well. But everybody's got their challenges, trust me.

Jordan Buckner (15:46)
I mean, I can tell you one of my favorite examples is a founder who I know and a friend and they had a post that was like, hey, we were one of the top selling items in this whole food store. And that was true. They were one of the top selling items. They also messaged me later saying, hey, look, this business is killing me. We're not making any money and I'm looking to sell it.

Howie Sher (16:08)
Both things can be true.

Jordan Buckner (16:10)
Both things can be true. And it's not that people are trying to deceive the world and that, and there are a lot of founders now who are posting the good and the bad, but I think that was a very sharp example of, and that was within a day or two that they messaged. And I was like, wow, both those things can be true. are pauses that are happening simultaneous with challenges as well. And to have that perspective is so important.

especially when founders just know their own struggles and they don't have these conversations.

Howie Sher (16:42)
Correct.

Jordan Buckner (16:43)
So that's so bad. mean, one thing with that then is I even started to layer on my own identity into the business performance, right? With T-Squares, I was running that for six years and I was the CEO of TeaSquares All my networking events, my friends, my social events were with other founders and that became part of my identity. And when I had to shut down the company, that was really hard because I wasn't just getting...

rid of the company that felt like I was getting rid of my very identity. And that was a big challenge that I had to learn and work through and overcome. I'm curious if you have to go through a similar thing or if you've kind of heard and talked with founders who have done similar.

Howie Sher (17:23)
so I'm to add a little humor and a little serious. my brand, I'll remind you is what are you nuts? I wish I would have named it boy. Aren't you handsome? because 30 days onto the market, and coming out of the retail post sales side and working in a family business. And I was always Howard simultaneous to that. I felt more comfortable being referred to as howie. So I'm.

Personally changing my first name and how I'd like to be referenced as how when I'm launching. What are you nuts? I'm how you know but as I was driving down the road with the window rolled down and someone would see me and they know it's my brand all I'd get is what are you nuts? In 30 years on the market not 30 days on the market. Pardon me. I You know, I don't know how this is gonna end

But I think I might be stuck with that's what I'm going to be. That's my name. So I better embrace, but yet not be owned by. And then later on in my life, I met a friend, Justin Perkins, that's a life coach and coaches people inside and outside this industry that also had a nut company simultaneous to my launch. And he shows up.

in our sessions and telling founders, you cannot believe that you are the t-shirt. You are not the t-shirt, you're a human being. You have feelings, you have dreams, you have goals. Sometimes they're dashed. Sometimes you have to adjust and adapt. Sometimes it starts and you're excited and sometimes you have to wind it down and it's uncomfortable. But it's what are we learning? How are we growing?

We are not the t-shirt. We are not the bag of nuts. We are not T-squares. We are not the bottle of ketchup. We're people. It's a job. I mean, if you want to really get down to it, it's work. But because it's personal and you've given life to something that didn't exist in its form, in its brand, we get this mindset that it's part of us. It's not our arm. It's not our leg. It's not us. We're not the t-shirt.

Jordan Buckner (19:20)
Now, Howie, to be fair, I have seen founders dress up as a bottle of ketchup. They're good. So I think... So to wrap up, Howie, if you could give a piece of advice to every founder about defining success for themselves, what would it be?

Howie Sher (19:26)
Don't do that, really nuts.

It starts and ends with the agreement in your head that it's a process like anything else in life and embrace this unique opportunity that the smallest percentage of people on the planet are entrepreneurial and bring something to market, bring something to life that didn't exist before they came up with this idea and leaned into it. In some cases,

took everything they had because it's always something they wanted to do. They're not in, and I admire these folks too, that know themselves that don't want to get on that roller coaster. They'd rather.

They'd rather, it's a small world than Space Mountain.

Most of our culture is content with having the job and not really exposing themselves to that sort of level of vulnerability, not jumping out of an airplane versus getting on that roller coaster. Because then you get into a smaller percentage of people that believe that success can be defined by taking that leap. So just showing up and going for it and let that...

be a sign and a part of success. So when they look back, if they had to wind it down or they sold out for millions of dollars, it's not about the dollars and cents of it, but it's about the desire and putting their mind to it and bringing something to life that that success. If there's just one thing that they can look back on and say, I was a success because of that moment, own it. Hold on to it.

Don't let the things that didn't go your way or the brand's way become the stains of the t-shirt.

Jordan Buckner (21:14)
I love that. Howie, everything you provide is always so valuable and I love talking with you all the time. And I wanna give a shout out to you, to the JPG Resources Founder Cohorts, which you helped run. It's a virtual B-School style program that's built specifically for food and beverage founders growing, new and emerging. And the program is really designed to help you scale smarter, faster with confidence. So any of the founders listening to this, you...

are struggling with some of these conversations, you have questions, you're looking for both mentors and the cohort of other founders to work with and work through these problems and celebrate opportunities and successes. Definitely look at the JPG resources from the cohort program. They are now accepted applications for the 2026 program. And as a Foodbevy listener, get special discount pricing. We'll put that in the show notes. But Howie, thanks so much for being on Sharing Your Infinite Wisdom.

and being so unmutable.

Howie Sher (22:10)
Well, I'm going to tell you, it's not always been comfortable for me to show up speaking about me and my experiences, but the more than 60 founders I've worked with over the last annual cycle telling me they want more, has brought more out of me. And it's a comfort level that I wasn't aspiring to. And that's what we have to do is build businesses if no one's looking.

given it our all and having that be a sign of success. So thanks again, Jordan. Thank you.

Jordan Buckner (22:41)
Thank you.