Jordan Buckner (00:00)
When I first started TeaSquares I thought that pitching the retailers was all about just telling my story and how great the product was. But after my first couple of buyer meetings, I realized it's not really just about like your founder story or why you create the company. It's about the retailer, their shells, their customers, and how your product is going to benefit them to create a win-win relationship. So today's guest, Tia Ellis, exactly how to bridge that gap.

and really to help founders craft powerful retail pitches that resonate with buyers and open doors. So in this episode, I really want to break down kind of how to go about pitching your way into your first purchase order with or, you know, particularly without a broker and doing it yourself. Tia, welcome to the podcast today.

Tia Ellis (00:46)
Thank you. my gosh, I'm so excited to be here.

Jordan Buckner (00:49)
Yeah, we're gonna have a fun conversation. love this topic. You know, I've personally pitched a dozen retailers and gotten on shelves to have experienced that full journey. But first off, I would love to start a little bit with your background and what inspired you to start Wildflower Insight and why focus on helping brands win at retail.

Tia Ellis (01:06)
Yeah, so my company, Wildflower Insight, we actually started as a, believe it or not, brokerage firm. So I was helping quite literally be the middleman and bridge that gap for founders so that they could get their products on retail shelves and realized very quickly that not all founders necessarily needed that middleman or that person in the middle. What they really just needed was the confidence and a lot of the education and the template and really

what goes on in those buyer meetings. And so over the last few years, we've really kind of pivoted in transition to teaching founders how to win in buyer meetings themselves without having to hire somebody and have somebody else run their business for them.

Jordan Buckner (01:48)
I think that's so key. so, mean, I'd love to think, right, for founders listening to this, when do you need a broker for your company and when don't you?

Tia Ellis (01:57)
I typically like to say that unless you are running or rolling out a humongous, like a national account, 2000 plus stores, I am of the personal opinion that you don't really need a broker. There are a lot of amazing retail partners that will allow you to go direct with them. So you can not only have the communication with the buyer and own that retail relationship, but you can also deliver direct to those retail warehouses. So a lot of the times you also, and this is highly controversial,

A lot of the times you don't even need a distributor as well. So just being able to understand what it looks like for success for specific brands and what that path is, is a huge piece.

Jordan Buckner (02:38)
No, I think that's so key because even when I was selling to Whole Foods, UNFI is their national distributor, but we were just selling in the Midwest region and we're able to go through a regional distributor to sell with them and avoid, at least for that account, a lot of the chargebacks and other fees that are usually associated. And usually, you might ask like, hey, who should we work with the distributor? Maybe tell you UNFI or Kehi or someone.

⁓ But there is some room, especially if you can prove that you will deliver, things easy, and get it to them on time, that they can actually, you can work outside of those systems.

Tia Ellis (03:12)
Yeah, I totally agree. I think that there's a lot of ways that you can work outside of the systems. And it's actually advantageous financially for a lot of founders to explore those options, especially early on. Now, it's totally different if you are a very established brand and you've got the funding to have humongous teams and go for all of the distribution. But a lot of the times, small startup businesses don't have excess money to waste. So it's really important to be intentional with the funds and the way that you're spending your money.

Jordan Buckner (03:40)
You talk a lot about the golden retail rule. What is it and how can founders apply it when pitching the buyers?

Tia Ellis (03:46)
I love the golden retail rule. And this is something that I learned about maybe four years ago, and it was actually from a retail buyer. So we were in a conversation, I was pitching them a product and she said, that's great. Like, that's really lovely. You're following the golden retail rule. And it stopped me in my tracks because I thought, wait a second, what is that? Well, the golden retail rule is really this kind of non-spoken

strategy and growth plan that buyers somehow expect brands to follow, but it's really not written anywhere or explained or communicated. So what the golden retail rule is, is the first thing, build out your brand and make sure that it's good. So building it out, doing the test, doing the trial, making sure it sells, the product packaging is right, all of the basics. Then you build your direct to consumer. So that would be your website sales. That's, know, amazon.com.

That would be TikTok shop, like all of the things where somebody could order it online and have one case or product delivered to their house. Then you go after the independents. So those would be like the very small retailers, the mom and pop shops, trying to get your product on those shelves. And the reason that you do that is so that you can collect data on how your product is doing, how sell through is going, how, you know, how interested other customers are to purchase your product.

because you want to use that to then build out your deck for some of the larger retail partners that you're going to go pitch to. So then following, you work with the independents, then you work with regional retailers, and then you move on to the national accounts. I actually am of the opinion that even wholesale, so those are like the Costco, the Sam's Clubs, the BJ's, those are so far into the capstone accounts. Those are not, like I never suggest for brands to go after them first because they just.

require significant volume, they require significant, you know, PO financing. I so many different additional things that you have to consider when you are trying to get your product on shelf. But when you follow the golden retail rule, you're really building it in a way where you are sustainable and able to continue to grow in a way that is not going to break your system or your model.

Jordan Buckner (05:49)
On the flip side, Tia, what happens when brands don't follow that rule?

Tia Ellis (05:53)
there are always the unicorns and always the outliers. However, just generally, if brands go after some of those capstone accounts, so like the Costco, the Sam's Club, the Walmart, whatever it is, I've seen brands go bankrupt. And it's a really scary thing because everybody says, I want to be, when I make it in Walmart or I make it in whatever retail it is, and I get this national role, I want to be a household name.

They do everything in their power to do it, but if they really can't sustain it from manufacturing, from financing, from operations, like even trucking, like if they can't do it, they end up getting themselves in trouble with the buyer, with the retailer, with charge back. mean, there's so many different levels of complexity to making sure that you get on shelf but stay on shelf. I've literally seen brands go bankrupt because they jump ahead and they try to bite off more than they can chew.

Jordan Buckner (06:42)
Yeah, I think that's so key because the main issue that any business particularly with CP brands is that you need money for your business, especially if you're selling in retail.

There's two ways to get it through velocity, selling more product at a single location or through door growth. And I see a lot of brands who are new, have a unique, innovative product, might have some education. Honestly, they struggle with velocity early on. And as a cure for that short term, they pitch their story and try and sell into more doors because I think if I just had a little bit more time, if I get those early POS, it gives me time to figure out the velocity piece. Otherwise I would just run out of money now.

versus kind of delaying that into the future. And I see that getting a lot of companies in trouble. Have you kind of seen a similar thing with brands you've seen in the market?

Tia Ellis (07:30)
Yeah, totally. And even just to add one layer to that, it's not just struggling with the velocity. It's also struggling with the cash flow and the payment terms. So a lot of brands will go back to their co-packer, their manufacturing facility, and say, hey, I want to negotiate with you if you give me. And if I give you increased volume, I need a reduction on the cost of my goods. That's totally economics 101. But then they have to commit to a certain amount. And if the retail partner that they're working with

doesn't end up putting in that extra PO, then they're stuck floating the cash. And that's how a lot of ⁓ founders get themselves in hot water, especially when it comes to the cash management and inventory flow.

Jordan Buckner (08:11)
again, it happens all the time. think that's one of the trickiest things with this business, especially having so much inventory that expires in most cases. You know, I mean, it kind of makes me think that as brands are thinking about getting their story out, there's different types of pitches and ways to tell their story. And you talk about kind of three pitches, the master customer, investor and retailer. Can you walk us through each one and why they're so different?

Tia Ellis (08:35)
Yeah, yeah. like you said, are three main pitches that a typical product founder needs to master. So the first one is, of course, the customer. What does it taste like? Is this going to be healthy for me? What are the benefits? The customer wants to know those things, and they will buy it and try it. Then there's the pitch to the investor. So let's say you get an opportunity, and you end up needing cash for something, going and pitching to somebody that potentially wants to give you money in exchange for equity in your company.

They, lot of times, depending on their thesis, might potentially not even care about what the product is, the flavor profile, what the health benefits are. They just wanna know if they're gonna get their money back in whatever their terms are, five to seven years. And so you have to be able to pitch to them directly. When you pitch to a retail buyer, you have to remember that buyers are corporate employees. And so they, a lot of the times, don't even get to choose the category that they buy for.

I actually knew a buyer that was over wine and spirits, and she was nine years sober. I mean, it's true. It sounds so crazy, but it's true. And so we had a brand go in and pitch this meeting, and the buyer refused to try their product. And so that's obviously worst case scenario in a wild curveball. But how do you pitch to somebody that

might not like your product, doesn't maybe even want to be there, is tired, has listened to 300 pitches in the last month. How do you communicate where they are going to listen? And so one of the things that we really try to teach our founders is to frame their pitch in a way that is going to be really well received to the buyer. And so if you can frame yourself as a brand that is going to perform well, is going to sell through in their stores, and is going to make them look good, right? Because as a

when you're pitching, you've really got two things to sell on. Like you need to make sure that you are convincing them that you are a strong brand, but also that you are going to help them make, help them look good. And so when you can convince them and explain through data, through trends, through, you know, information that you are going to perform well, that's how founders win. And always making sure that you are offering them something instead of just going into the meeting and being kind of like,

a transactional supplier because that's how you separate yourself. They get those kind of pitches all day, every day, when you can really come in as somebody that wants to be a long-term partner and make them look good so that they can potentially get that holiday bonus or that promotion. That's how you build real relationships and people remember that.

Jordan Buckner (11:04)
let's into that a little bit more because I'd love to learn how buyer psychology really shapes what you say and what you don't say in those meanings in the pitch.

Tia Ellis (11:13)
Yeah, well, that's really truly the curve ball because you never know what kind of buyer you're going to walk into. You could get somebody that is a very seasoned professional that's been doing this for 30 years and doesn't want any of the fluff and just the facts. You could also get a personality buyer that wants to invest in and take risks on brands and more specifically the people that they believe are going to be gritty and hardworking founders. So it's important to be able to

to speak to both. And I actually train our founders that go through our program, Pitch to PO, on how to communicate to multiple buyers depending on how they show up. actually, in one of our group exercises, we do a mock buyer call. And I have everybody put their name in a cup, and I'll draw them. And whichever one they draw, put.

hat on and become this different persona. And so it's the wildest thing. It's like a Zoom call. And then all of a sudden, you come in with a sombrero and a... It's fun for me, for sure. I'm serious. But it teaches the founders you can't go in with any type of expectation. And it really requires them to think on their toes because truly, if you can get through that distracting of a Zoom call, then you can pitch and present to anybody.

Jordan Buckner (12:11)
was like so much fun.

I think that's so key. And I think a lot of founders really don't understand just how to think about those meetings. Like I went into a meeting with Marianos before, and then went and part of the Albertson stores and we were part of like our investor group. think there were six other companies and we each had like a minute essentially to pitch our brand. I had this whole pitch deck created. We didn't have a screen, so I it printed out. It's going to walk through and show the buyer and we get there and the buyer's just kind of talking. He's like, okay, what's your product?

What's your product? Great. We'll take yours and yours and yours. Like I didn't touch the pitch deck, right? Like some people at one and they're trying to like, wait, wait, I made this whole presentation. And he's basically like, I don't want to hear it. And it's so hard to like, I know a couple of people after like, that was really weird. Like they didn't even ask to learn more about my product. It's because the buyer looked at the products beforehand. They made a decision and at the meeting was more like a formality and some got in and some didn't, but like none of us were expecting that.

Tia Ellis (13:25)
Yeah, I've seen a lot of founders do that, but I've also seen the flip side of it where a buyer will take the full meeting and have you sit down and not say one single word. Like, you're presenting to basically a, like it's like a brick wall. that's the energy that you're receiving and you're feeding off of, but you still have to figure out a way to lighten the conversation and allow your passion to kind of show through because

at the end of the day, you drop everything else, buyers are humans and people buy from people that they like. And so when they believe in you and your brand and your mission and why you started it and the people that you're impacting the lives you're changing, because of this thing that you've created, this product you've created, that's how you become memorable and that's how you get the call back.

Jordan Buckner (14:10)
So Tia, that actually brings up a good point. If there's a buyer who's just like not responsive, they're not asking questions, how do you change the direction of that conversation?

Tia Ellis (14:18)
That is such a loaded question. ⁓ it's a difficult one because it truly it comes down to the founder and it comes down to the buyer. But one of the things that you can do in those meetings is pause and ask if they have any questions and really kind of open it up. And I say that your pitch should be kind of like

in the background. The deck should be in the background, and your conversation should be the most important part of the entire meeting. And so if all they're doing is staring at the slides, and you're trying to interact with them, and you're getting nothing, it's hard. Pause and ask them questions.

What

you seen from brands that have done well in your category? Or what has been something that you recommend or you see?

what's a brand that you're looking forward to? Like what's something that's been changing in the industry? And it's like just kind of opening up the conversation to get them to say something. And from there, you can kind of, you know, re-navigate back into wherever your pitch was.

Jordan Buckner (15:20)
Yeah, I think that's a really good point. Other times I've even done things where I'm just asking like, hey, like, you know, I'm curious what you saw in about our product or my pitch that made you interested. Right, to understand like where they're coming from, like why they even are in this meeting or if they're like, yeah, I've already written this product off. We actually don't want it. Oh, you know, be nice and let you finish, but like, maybe it's already a no for this reason. And then maybe it's valid. There's nothing to do. Maybe you can change this.

trajectory of that conversation if you bring up a piece of data that like, ⁓ actually we're seeing this incredible velocity, but I hadn't talked about that yet. Blah, blah, blah. It's in this category. I'm like, okay. That's actually interesting to me versus the other stuff for like, why you start the company? Like there's less might be less so for certain buyer types.

Tia Ellis (15:59)
Well, and I love what you kind of just said there. Like one of the things that we, if you feel like the meeting's not going well or you end the meeting and it just, you really have no idea what to make of it. I love to encourage people to ask the buyer for feedback. And this seems like one of those, you know, basic things that just is kind of like uncomfortable to do. But when somebody comes in and, know, pitching is hard. Like it takes a lot of courage and it's very nerve wracking. It's like, you know,

being interviewed, essentially, with a presentation. And so when you can ask somebody, hey, do you have any feedback for me? I totally appreciate your time. Thank you for allowing us to be here and the opportunity to have the conversation. I'm curious if you have any bits of feedback or things that I could be working on so that next time when we talk, I am more in line with your expectations.

Jordan Buckner (16:52)
Yeah, I think that's so key and asking those things. mean, like around that, how do you even recommend structuring both the content for that pitch and the timing for the meetings?

Tia Ellis (17:02)
So the content is we have a template that we really like to use. I suggest to founders to keep it under 10 slides. Typically buyer meetings are about 20 minutes or so. And so let's just say you've got three to four minutes of small talk, conversation, set up, technical difficulties, whatever. Then you have 10 minutes of the pitch and then anywhere between five and whatever else is left over of

question, answer, follow-up, next steps, encouraging feedback, all of those kinds of things and building the relationship. So the goal is that founders can pitch in less than 10 minutes, which essentially if you've got about 10 slides and that includes the title and the end slide, you should be able to get through a slide in less than 60 seconds.

You also kind of have to be prepared. And the reason that we want to leave a little extra time at the beginning and at the end is if you get a talkative buyer and they decide to cut you off during maybe the pricing slide, because everybody likes to talk during that slide, how do you build in a little extra time and then make sure that you're wrapping it back around to make sure that you're closing it off and continue to talk about your operations and your logistical capacity and your efficiency?

Jordan Buckner (18:12)
Yeah, I think that's huge. One thing I've also found is when you're running short of time, asking the buyer, what do you care most about? And then talking about the slides that they actually care most about or want to hear.

Tia Ellis (18:22)
Yeah, yeah, I love that. That's a good point.

Jordan Buckner (18:25)
As you're rounding out the conversations, then what are the best questions to ask during the buyer meeting while you have them to show both the you're interested in them and that you want to actually move the relationship for it?

Tia Ellis (18:37)
I love, and this is a simple question, because a lot of times, I would say 90 % of the time you pitch to somebody, you get ghosted at some point or another. And whether that's within the first week or three months down the road, or it doesn't work out the next year, one of the questions that I really love to make sure that people ask in a buyer meeting is, what does your timeline look like to make a decision?

when are you going to review this category before the review? So like sometimes buyers will visit it, revisit it at the three month period, six month period. But then also sometimes their review cycles are on a rolling basis. So I'd love to ask the question of when is the next time you're gonna be looking at this? Because based off that information, you actually get the perfect timeline on when you should be following up if you do get ghosted.

And of course, we hope that you don't. But if that does happen, what's the contingency plan to make sure that you're not somebody that never hears back from them? And you're able to provide additional information to them. And this is another thing I love to recommend is always, always provide something of value when you're communicating with them. So you never want to be that brand or that potential supplier that is constantly asking for something. Like, hey, can I get a meeting with you? Hey, can I get on your review? Hey, can you look at me? ⁓

yada yada, hey, I just wanted to share we just got featured in Blink magazine. Or hey, we've onboarded with a new warehouse and we've got additional distribution and capability now. Or we're rolling out with two new flavors and different SKUs and we're so excited about this, I'd love to send you some samples. You're not asking for anything, but you're just sharing very positive, uplifting highlights to them so that when, again, you're following, if you're in that weird space of there's no communication, again, you are working on that professional relationship and not being.

You know, I bother.

Jordan Buckner (20:25)
Yeah, no, I think that's so key. And I love that insight in just sharing positive news regularly on a regular cadence so you're always staying top of mind because there's a million reasons why your product's not a good fit at that time. But if you're constantly in the back of their mind in good ways, then they're more likely to work with you when there is time or space available. I love that. Tia, are there any?

really like not to do things that you found from pitching to retailers or buyers that you see are big red flags.

Tia Ellis (20:54)
I don't ever recommend to, when you're pitching and the verbiage that you're using, so when you're in the conversation, I never recommend to say, when we are on shelf. Some people suggest that that's great because it's optimistic and you're thinking in the future and you're having that positive mindset. But for some, it can seem very expectant, privileged, and

put you in potentially a light that is not humble or gritty or hardworking and just very expectant. And so I always recommend to use very neutral words, like in the category or in blank name retailer. So I would never say like, yeah, so when we get in your shelf or when we get in your review or something like that, that's kind of the number one thing. And it's like the easiest turn off for a brand.

Jordan Buckner (21:44)
that. And then in terms of like knowing the retailer, I've heard retailers comment like your pitch could have been delivered to any retailer. Like how do you make it specific to that specific retail company?

Tia Ellis (21:55)
So there's really two big things. ⁓ The first one is I love to record every pitch deck and pitch should be specific to that retailer. So like if you are going to pitch in the same year to Whole Foods versus a Target, you should have a deck for Whole Foods and you should have a deck for Target. On the Whole Foods deck, you should have the Whole Foods logo on the bottom. Actually, maybe even on every slide to make sure that they know that this was kind of custom made for them.

I also like to have a slide in there in the 10 slides of why you're a retailer fit. So for example, if you're a really, really high-end premium positioned, let's say spice, you might be a great fit for Whole Foods. Whereas there are some other retailers where that customer that's buying the very, very high-end premium positioned salts is not shopping.

And so it's important to make sure that in that retailer alignment side, you're not only talking about your ideal customer profile and who's actually buying your product, but making sure that it also aligns with that customer, the traditional Whole Foods customer as well.

Jordan Buckner (22:56)
I love that. Tia, there's so much more that we can talk about, as any brand who's listening to this, it really means a lot and helps to know how to pitch to retailers, how to pitch to buyers, because a lot of times you may only get one chance or one chance per year to even talk to a retailer, so you want to make sure to get it right. For those brands who need or are looking for that extra support, how can they best work with you?

Tia Ellis (23:18)
Well, we love working with product and consumer product good brands. ⁓ Again, this is like what we do all day, every day. And I've kind of made it my mission in life to support brands so that they can grow their business and become successful independent of other people or potentially brokers or distributors, whatever it may be. Best way to work with us and connect with us is actually on our LinkedIn. So I'm sure we can share that somewhere.

Jordan Buckner (23:45)
show

notes.

Tia Ellis (23:45)
Perfect. And that's the best way to get a hold of us. Also, we do post a lot on LinkedIn, like retailer tips and opportunities. And so there's just a fun way to be involved in that.

Jordan Buckner (23:56)
I love it. Tia, thanks so much for being on today and sharing all these insights and definitely appreciate it.

Tia Ellis (24:01)
Thanks, Jordan.