Jordan Buckner (00:00)
When I first started TeaSquares I thought that if I just made a great product and beautiful packaging, then it would just sell itself. But what I didn't understand was that retail isn't about just having the best design product on the shelf. It's about the split-second decisions that customers make when they are buying a product. And for the large CPG brands in the space, they have been really trained in how to exactly win at that moment on shelf.

And so today I invited on Kevin, who is the founder owner of Smash Brand to talk through what large CPG companies have really understood about shelf psychology, shopper behavior and packaging performance and how emerging brands can apply some of that same understanding even as they are kind of growing throughout retail. Because at a certain point there's certain buyer psychologies that are just universal that brands need to understand.

So Kevin, welcome on into the show today.

Kevin Smith (00:57)
Thank you so much. Appreciate it.

Jordan Buckner (00:59)
So in starting out, I love just a little bit of idea around from your experience, what do big CPG companies really understand about winning on shelf that most emerging brands kind of completely miss or don't quite understand because they haven't had that experience?

Kevin Smith (01:13)
Yeah, I think this is a big one right here. And you you see it all the time. Like if I'm over at Expo West, right? I walk through the show and I'm amazed by all the new innovation. And at the same time,

can't stop and think.

Oh my gosh, 95 to 98 % of these brands, like they probably don't get it. They're gonna have a very hard time. the way that I'll kind of talk through this is maybe just really quickly, I'm just gonna explain like where I came from, because this is sort of my perspective and it might be different than a big brand's perspective.

but I've been in consumer goods now for 25 years and 17 of those years I've owned and scaled three pretty successful consumer brands all the way from the tiniest challenger to distribution across the US. And then my business partner, Christy, also 25 years, but she came from Big Co. So, you know, like head of brands and innovation at Unilever, Kraft, Pepsi.

And what we know is the way that we would go about brand development for me as a tiny little non-capitalized brand is completely different than the how you would do it over at Kraft. And I think like the biggest takeaway really that the difference is big CPG treats brand packaging as their number one sales tool, like full stop.

They don't treat it as an art project or like, think this is going to look great on Instagram or my decks or a pitch deck. That doesn't matter for big CPG. They know that this is the only asset that your brand will ever have that drives the most margin for the business. you know, you can get additional sales in a few ways, right? Pump more marketing dollars at it. And that's going to hit margin. You can ⁓ decrease price.

or add promotion and that's going to hit margin. But if you optimize that asset, that is your packaging, to maximize its potential within the set, it's the only one that adds incremental dollars and will never hit margin. And they truly understand that and that's why they ⁓ invest so much in it.

Jordan Buckner (03:09)
No, I think that's really interesting because I've done a lot of, you know, just studying in terms of how the packaged goods industry has developed over time. And you think about it, go back, you know, a hundred years, most of the products you buy in the store were commodity based, right? They're flour, beans, there was no strong brand behind them. Maybe a couple of small local ones. But then in terms of how to differentiate, a lot of these larger companies started to build more, a little bit of storytelling around their product, but it really about how do I get attention on shelf?

and especially before the days of social media and being seen all the times, lot of that discovery for the first time probably happened what, around either you saw it on the shelf or maybe advertisement, TV, maybe kind of print, but like those were the only mediums and so the on-shelf discovery played a much larger impact and trained consumers for the past 50, 75 years on how do you actually...

understand the buyer prodge on shelf. It's what you see at that packaging. A lot of times when you're kind of at that buying decision, is that right?

Kevin Smith (04:11)
That's right, absolutely.

like when we think about the shopper today and still, they scan the shelf, right? It's...

It's they're gonna process it in the same way that they do any complex, like visual environment. They sort of triage first and then filter for relevance. So, you know, what I mean by that is you're sort of doing like rapid fixations across the shelf. Kind of that's like the gaze sequence. And then your brain is deciding for you, like what should I ignore and what should I investigate? And that's like the first two seconds. And it really doesn't matter so much that if, have I seen this on a

commercial or on a TikTok that does add relevancy but still that shelf and the way that big brands do look at this today is still like the place that is gonna convert and

I think that they call it driving attention, and that is that contrast, that distinctiveness, the color, the shape, structural differences, like anything that can break that visual pattern in the category, that's that kind of first moment of attention. Because the consumer brain at that point is asking, what's different here? And then it gets into the second step of, how is that relevant to me?

Jordan Buckner (05:18)
So the work that you do with SmashBrands really around how to create a strategy around branding and packaging for CPG brands. And so you have a lot of experience kind of understanding how consumers shop in different categories. And I'm curious to know, has there been any change in how consumers are shopping and discovering product now, and how that's maybe evolved over the time that you've been doing this?

Kevin Smith (05:43)
Yeah, that's a great question.

So

when I had owned several brands in the sports nutrition and health and wellness space, but I wasn't an agency person. I was a person who had a full-time job and decided to go in this and quit and go all in and learn all the scars and receipts, hire designers or agencies. And the one thing that I noticed probably a couple years in was that

It's interesting when people develop packaging that it's sort of subjective. But on the other side of it, when we think about digital marketing.

There's no way that you're going to develop one advertisement and then you're going to go put hundreds of thousands of dollars behind that advertisement. And then maybe if it's not converting that well, make one more advertisement and replace it. What I noticed was that these digital marketers that we would hire for our company, we would create 10, 15, 20 ads. And we would do these small little tests. And we'd find out that 14 of those creatives really didn't perform, but one did. And then we put our money behind that one.

And

that would scale up and then we would do the same thing. But for some reason on the agency, like the brand development side, and that is really ⁓ what made me take a look at how bigger CPGs do it. And I think with my own success with my consumer brands, it was all on the retail shelf. And it was understanding that it's not an art exercise, that it's very much science and you have to get the consumer voice in the room way before you activate it. to end this, so to bring that together with your question,

I don't believe the way that consumers shop is inherently different other than there's more choices. You know, of course you can buy direct, you know, direct from the brand. You can get it in all the marketplaces. I can just pull up to the store and have it put in my thing because I shopped online. But overall, like that shelf is still the main place, especially for, I believe, new and emerging brands to get really discovered and selected. But the difference, I think, is the buying behavior.

where these, you know, legacy brands, and then I had, we're gonna go camping after this, and my kids wanted mac and cheese, and we're a good old household. Like, we don't buy Kraft anymore. That's one of these legacy brands. And so I was gonna talk about them a little bit today. And I pulled up some of their, like, latest POS, because it is a fascinating story, right? Of this Challenger brand that now is dominating.

They're taking on an 87 year old incumbent brand of Kraft as well as Annie's and Today they are absolutely leading a declining category and they're selling like like three boxes a second like it's it's insane what they're doing and the way that this is happening is consumers have changed how they shopped and Goodles was able to find they're not gonna compete on all family that was you Annie's and that was Kraft they were like hey, there's this gap in the market of consumers

Jordan Buckner (08:26)
Okay.

Kevin Smith (08:33)
who are moving more into adulthood and we can own something that these legacy brands are not. And that was the segment that they went after and it actually has increased share in that category. So they're bringing new consumers back into mac and cheese.

The way that relates into your question there is I believe that consumers still still shop in the same way, the decision making, the psychology around it is the same, but what's changing is the way that their decision making is happening for like usage occasion and jobs to be done and they're looking for specific, specific products purpose built for them.

Jordan Buckner (09:08)
So here's something, Kevin, that I want you to share your perspective on because when I first started in the CPG space, everyone always told me, find the blue ocean, find white space, find something that no one else is doing, and that's where you need to innovate instead of creating a Me Too product. You look at something like Goodles and...

On one hand, there's a lot of stuff that they're doing new. On the other hand, it's a box of mac and cheese. And so, help me understand maybe, especially for lot of founders listening, where's that balance? Like, what's different from your perspective about what Goodles is doing and taking up Kraft? Why are they winning on the shelf? And what really differentiates them on the shelf? But also recognizing the consumer behavior that Kraft is built.

Kevin Smith (09:52)
Yep. So Kraft clearly they dominated forever right on this all family idea. It's kids, it's all family. And then these brands, a lot of times the legacy brands, they get stuck there. They've got to protect it and defend it. They can't make these big moves. And that's where, again, like if I'm walking Expo West and I'm looking at these things, a lot of these products, it's sort of, they're trying to be everything for everyone. A lot of times, maybe that's like, you know, we are blue ocean because we're different, but I don't think it's the way, like when I see the brands,

Jordan Buckner (10:01)
Yeah.

Kevin Smith (10:20)
that really kill it today,

what they're doing. And so in relation to sort of Goodles is

You need enough of the overall category cues for people to recognize, like, ⁓ this is a standard macaroni and cheese box, right? Instantly, they're saying what it is. They're not over-indexing on brand. not, right? The hierarchy is so important there. But you're like, OK, this is macaroni and cheese.

Jordan Buckner (10:44)
are some of those cues just to get into some of the specifics? When you look at that, what do they keep from the category standard?

Kevin Smith (10:50)
Yeah, so we're showing the mac and cheese, right? That's super important. This is one, again, like I'm walking those shows, I see so many brands that's going maybe like some huge brand name, minimalistic typography. Like if this is something we're eating, we gotta show it, right? That is something that is, every time we run testing on this, if they're not showing it, you are losing points to the competition for sure. So show me the deliciousness, right? So Kraft is showing it, you know, it's on a fork or a bowl, the cheese is drippy, it's great.

Belvita, you know, that is, that's a category Q. Goodles is doing it in a different way, but they're still showing it. You know it's mac and cheese. Same thing with like format and structure. They could have gone into a different type of box, but they didn't. And I believe it's very strategic of this is the same box as Kraft mac and cheese. And then where they deviate, if you looked at that aisle before Goodles comes into it, right, it's an aisle of blue and red. And then of course you have Annie's, which is kind of a, a kind of a rainbow, but it's still very like natural feeling. It's all

family and then where they do deviate from it then is it's pink, it's crazy colored green, it's Chedimac, the way that they're naming it, it's protein, it's all these things that this consumer group that Kraft can't reach into because they've got to defend all families so much.

Jordan Buckner (12:02)
Yeah, you know, it's the box, they didn't go with a retort kind of cooked mac and cheese product that you reheat. It's still a dry macaroni with a pack of the cheese in there. And so it's a very familiar format. And I think one thing that stands out, right, is they really highlight the macros of 14 grams of protein, seven grams of fiber, and almost like it's a cooler macaroni and cheese. Basically they're saying it's like Kraft.

but better because it has more protein, it's something that you wanna be, can feel good about eating. It's like, you know, an updated version of it. And I think that plays a big difference versus doing a completely new packaging form and a completely new way of selling the product instead of going with what Kraft has spent millions and millions of dollars educating people on what mac and cheese is.

Kevin Smith (12:47)
No, that's 100 % right. What I thought was super interesting when I was taking a look at that this morning, was that initially, like after launch for the first few years, was 84 % of the Goodles customers hadn't bought a mac and cheese in the last three years. And it like brought them back into the category.

Like that's amazing. that is, you know, today, you know, emerging brands have really, really, really what you want. Instead of trying to be like a better version of macaroni and cheese, they were different. And I always say that different is better than better. And they were doing it differently because it was targeting a different consumer segment. Relevant enough that you still know it's mac and cheese, different enough that it's attracting that segment and then not having to compete. Truly not having to compete with Kraft because they're driving in a whole new audience for that.

Jordan Buckner (13:30)
Yeah, I love that. And I think this is a good example because I think it's a brilliant category because it has a high velocity. A lot of times people, like how many boxes do you, like when you buy a couple boxes, do you buy one or do you buy like five or 10 for the family for the week? Yeah, right. So it's like high velocity, a low enough price point, a simple product.

and high usage occasion. think the other thing, I talked with ⁓ a tea brand and they came out with this innovative packaging. were like, we have 30 servings of matcha in this bottle that's cool. It's a shaker bottle, you just kind of pour it.

and customers loved it. The problem was that the repeat was like once every three months because they weren't drinking it every day and even when they were it was lasting a month or two months because the product was so innovative, it was cool, but it did not drive velocity and already a slow moving category. And so I think that's the other thing that I've seen of people making.

Kevin Smith (14:09)
Yeah.

Jordan Buckner (14:27)
cool products but don't fit how like usage and buying occasion so that people can actually support the business from it.

Kevin Smith (14:34)
Yeah, that's right. At the end of the day, all of us in consumer goods, it's really the business of repeat. And even when you're thinking about your innovation, everything matters to that point of when we launched this thing, of course, you want to get trial on it so people buy it. if you don't build something on repeat, you don't have a business. That's for sure. I agree.

Jordan Buckner (14:51)
So here's

one big question too, how brands should be built because I know there's a lot of focus on storytelling, especially founder led brands. And that being a huge differentiator that's not able to be copied by larger competitors. At the same time, where does that storytelling element...

intersect with packaging on shelf where the consumer can't hear the full story. And just as a quick example with my brand TeaSquares I remember we were selling at Whole Foods. I was doing a demo and the customer came by and said, hey, I actually saw this on the shelf the other day. It looked interesting, but I did not buy it.

And when they tried out the demo and I told them our story, they were like, this is really great. And they bought two bags, but there was a disconnect between our story and the impact of that story and the actual packaging and how that messaging could resonate when I wasn't there.

Kevin Smith (15:44)
No, that's funny. I've had the same experience with my initial first run of a brand that I had. boy, was it a great story. And when I would go to stores and I would do the demos myself, like back in 2000, we would sell a ton of product and then I would leave the store and we wouldn't sell a lot of product. I remember doing that in GNCs. And it was very frustrating. And then fast forward now 25 years later and just now.

having, you know, because of all this testing that we do so much data in the category. I had it wrong. And so I'm going to be maybe a bit provocative here. And I do not believe in my and my focus is really on products, you know, moving on shelf and what we've learned from that. The story doesn't matter. It doesn't matter. And as much as I want it to matter, a lot of this, you know, purpose driven.

It's very interesting from like a tertiary point, but at the end of the day, people wanna understand like when I'm picking this product for if it's food, is it gonna taste good? Is my whole family gonna like it?

Is it good for me? These are the fundamental, what actually is it when I'm looking at it? Before all the story, we've got to answer usage occasion, jobs to be done, and make sure that that is so crystal clear for the consumer that now we're being selected over the competition. And that's in that choice phase. That's second number three to five. You can't get a story across on that. And that will happening in the marketing channels. But the way that I think of packaging specifically in retail is,

It's almost

if I was creating a greater than value sign and on the packaging is going to be a very functional component. Again, a lot of challenger brands, see them way over indexing on like the brand and the tagline where what they really want to know is what is it? Because they don't know your brand yet today, there's not enough exposure and like mental availability from the consumer. We want to get to really quickly, what is this thing and why should you put it in your life and fire something else and hire this brand? Like that's the most important function of the packaging.

In the future, you can get more to that storytelling, but ⁓ I see it over indexed constantly.

Probably 30 % of the work that we do is, it's usually like investment backed companies, but they were founder led, they've gone in, they're not selling above category averages. And when we initially first do the testing, it is because of all the things that I just said, and they've way over indexed on brand story or like tagline or being cute, not on the like functional things they need to win on and like the fundamentals like taste and flavor, and just backing those things

into it and getting rid of the rest, see sometimes 100 % improvement improvements on it.

Jordan Buckner (18:21)
That makes such a big difference, I think it's really lacking. And the last thing I just wanna touch on quick is how do you see function benefit claims showing up on packaging these days? Because I think that's something large CPG is really honed in on, either from the protein, fat, fiber, sugar content, or things like easy meal in five minutes, Going a little bit more towards explaining the job to be done versus just putting macros out there and your take on how consumers respond.

Kevin Smith (18:48)
Yeah, it's huge again. I can be pretty quick on this one, but in the testing data, because it is every day that we're pulling this data across so many categories, these claims are going to be super important. here's where it works the best is that usually like the hierarchy of that gay sequence of the consumer is ⁓ as a challenger brand, it's less about brand. that can be smaller in the hierarchy, even though you want it to be huge. Like people don't care as much in the beginning, but it really is like value proposition of

like that is going to be tied into like jobs to be done. Like what is this thing? You know, if it's laundry detergent, is it about it being liquidless or convenient or less plastic? Like what is it? And then when we think about the claims, mostly the claims are going to work best again in those functional claims. And the more we see it test off the charts is if you can also create an outcome with it, like 14 grams of protein. And this is, I'm going to, this was probably not the best usage because everything is protein.

today. But then if you can back that functional call out up with like an RTB, reason to believe, like why does that 14 grams of protein matter to me?

that's when we see testing off the charts. So it's really like the hierarchy is that overall value proposition of the product that's unique and different within the category and to the specific target you're going after. And then the functional claims backed up with an RTB. And if these brands can do that, they will punch above their weight.

Jordan Buckner (20:11)
I love that, Kevin. Kevin, thanks so much for being on and sharing all these tips. If you want these same level insights for your brand, definitely make sure to check out Smash Brand and understand how they view the category backed with analytics to design really effective packaging that sells. And I'll put the link in the show notes as well. Kevin, thanks for being on today.

Kevin Smith (20:29)
Thanks for having me on, Jordan.