Jordan Buckner (00:00)
When you're s building a CPG brand, your first packaging often comes together when you're still figuring everything else out. Your product, your customer, your positioning, and where you're ultimately going to sell. But as your business grows, your packaging has to be the number one selling tool for your brand. And sometimes that means realizing the design you maybe love and started off with isn't communicating clearly to someone who's discovering your product for the first time.

Evie Snacks is a brand who figured that out firsthand and recently redesigned their packaging to be more effective. So that's why I invited on Eve Ackerley, who's the co-founder and CEO of Evie Snacks, and Taja Dockendorf, who's the founder of Pulp and Wire, the design agency that helped Evie's rethink how the brand showed up on shelf. Evie and Taja, welcome to the show today.

Taja Dockendorf (00:46)
Hi Jordan. Thanks

Eve Ackerley (00:47)
Thanks having me.

Taja Dockendorf (00:47)
for having us.

Jordan Buckner (00:48)
So I wanted to talk through, you know, how to know when it's time for a packaging redesign and how to create packaging that doesn't just look great but also help sell the product. So Evie, maybe starting with you, I'd love for you just to tell us about Evie snacks and the original vision for the brand.

Eve Ackerley (01:05)
Yeah, so Evie's we offer crunchy roasted pecans in kind of fun nostalgic flavors like banana bread, cinnamon churro. we like to think of them as a healthy indulgence, something you can snack on every day or throw on your yogurt or in a charcuterie board. But what's kind of a fun fact about us is we are farm to bag, so all of our nuts come from my family farms in South Texas.

Jordan Buckner (01:27)
That's really exciting and such a cool way to take like the product pacan and elevate it into like the fun snacking product that everyone buys and eats from the store. That's really exciting. So

Eve Ackerley (01:36)
Yeah.

Jordan Buckner (01:37)
at what point did you start to realize that maybe the packaging that you had originally wasn't communicating the product or the brand as clearly as you wanted it to?

Eve Ackerley (01:46)
Yeah, so I mean we our packaging really kind of evolved organically. you know, early days we started off at farmers markets. so it was really just a simple craft pouch with a black and white label, you know, sticker that we applied. we knew that just things were gonna continually change. how we talked about the flavor.

you know, just so many different things. So we really didn't want to be beholden to any one design. as we went along though, we did we kind of worked with a freelance designer. We upgraded that sticker to have a logo to bring in some colors. but fast forward, you know, we started getting into independence and we started talking with some more regional retailers. and at one particular store visit, we were talking with a ShopRite manager and he was considering us to come in through the local program. And

we were kind of walking around seeing where we would sit in store and like who are some of our competitors we would be sitting on shelf with. and I think that was when we quickly realized, you know, our product is great, like, you know, a super high quality product. and

our packaging wasn't quite communicating that. You know, the a high quality product, a slightly more prime premium price point, we really needed the packaging to kind of line up with that of what a consumer expects. And so that was kind of our realization where, you know, we need to upgrade our packaging, bring in a new visual refresh, you know, which is the big project that we worked on with Pulp and Wire.

Jordan Buckner (03:00)
That's really exciting. Was there anything in particular like about the packaging that led to any like misunderstandings of like what it was or the value that you're providing?

Eve Ackerley (03:07)
Yeah, I mean I think you know, first and foremost, when you're talking with a larger retailer, you know, there are just consumer expectations. that consumer shopping in a larger format grocery store of what, you know, how the product should look and feel, how it should be packaged up. And so being in a craft pouch, you know, we weren't not having long enough shelf life, also just not you know, kind of meeting that consumer expectation. That might be something they would see at a farmers market or in an independent shop, but

Not at their kind of you know ShopRite or a giant grocery store. but second is yes, you know, without Colin and I standing next to the product selling it, you know, a lot of things just got missed. And so you really only have a few seconds to capture that consumer's attention and communicate what the product is and you know, if they want to buy it. And so I think that was one thing, you know, that wasn't really happening quite yet with our current packaging. And so that's a big reason of to be ready for.

for retail, you know, you really need your packaging to do the selling for you.

Jordan Buckner (04:02)
Yeah, I think that's really key. I mean, I've had experiences before just with my brand where we had our packaging on the shelf in the store and we did a demo. And during that demo, a customer came up and they said, hey, I actually saw this on the shelf. It looked really interesting, but I did not buy it.

And after we talked to them during the demo and explained the product they got to taste it, they're like, this is amazing. And they bought one on the spot and realized if I was not there, then they would not have purchased that product ever. And so our packaging was not effective at actually selling what our value was and what the product was. So right there with you. So

Eve Ackerley (04:34)
Yeah.

Jordan Buckner (04:35)
I'm curious as you went through the redesign process, you understand, like, okay, we need to improve our packaging. What led you to working with Taja and Pulp and Wire? And what was the design process like from your perspective?

Yeah.

Eve Ackerley (04:48)
Yeah, you know, we were really drawn drawn to Pulp and Wire just because of one, we had seen a lot of examples of their work, you know, which we loved. but talking with other founders who had worked with Pulp and Wire, you know, just continually hearing, you know, how strategic they were in in helping design the packaging. and being able to create really timeless designs, which was super important for us because we really didn't want trendy packaging that we were gonna have to redesign a few years down the line. We really wanted to

do this big project and really feel confident that this was gonna be kind of a set of a system or a framework to grow the brand. and and Pulpenwire, you know, was just a great partner in, you know, they didn't just take our insights and kind of start working. You know, they really challenged us and helped kind of think about what is the brand going to look like a few years down the line.

The the process itself is definitely a challenging one. you know, you really have to have a lot of insights ready to to you know, working with the designer for them to create the best product. and you know, it's just there's a lot of things that you have to have ready before that process can be super effective. You know, a lot of consumer insights, you know, having talked with buyers, really understanding your category of

what size do I want my pack to be? you know, do I need to be innovating on the actual packaging itself to stand out in the category? So I think we, really tried to have as many of those learnings before we did that project to make sure it was as successful as possible.

Jordan Buckner (06:07)
Eve was there a key insight that you identify through that process in terms of understanding how people are shopping for kind of nuts in this category?

Eve Ackerley (06:17)
Yeah, I you know, in the nut category, you know, first and foremost, you know, pecans in particular are not seen as a snacking nut s today. You know, people think of them in like, you know, in your pecan pie or in ice cream. you know, they think of them a little bit more seasonally. And so to sit in the snacking nut set, you know, we really needed to get a consumer's attention with these really fun nostalgic flavor profiles of, yeah, like cinnamon tro pecans

Is

something I would want to have as an afternoon treat, or you know, sweet and salty pecans is something I would want to throw in my salad. So the really one communicating that it was a snacking pecan, and two, that that flavor sounded really enticing and appealing, and showing that big pecan, I mean, those were two key things to have just executed really well in our packaging to grab a consumer's attention as they're, you know, looking through all the different snacking nuts. So pulp and wire, you know.

was super key in like how do we highlight pecans, highlight you know that those flavor names to to really do the selling.

Jordan Buckner (07:15)
Yeah, I mean that's definitely a challenge when you're taking something that's traditionally seen as a commodity or an inclusion in something else and bring it to being that hero, that hero product. So love that. So Taja, I'd love to bring you in and discuss, right, when Evie's came to Pulp and Wire, how did you evaluate kind of the existing brand and packaging and what were some of the biggest opportunities you identify with improving the packaging?

Taja Dockendorf (07:37)
Well, with Evie's in particular, it was it was that the perfect time, right? When they've done some of that testing, they've been on shelf, they have some of those metrics, but the packaging was still felt very farmers market. It was like you've got all these wonderful metrics to go by, and now we know where we can expand and who's interested in the product, but the packaging doesn't actually tell the full story of the quality that's inside the bag. So when we first got them, we were thrilled because one, there's a few little things we saw in that packaging that was current. Like it was a fun, playful logo. We knew.

They weren't afraid of doing fun things. It just the execution needed to be pushed further. But honestly, the magic is what was inside the package. And I tell Brands all the time, we can help it move off the shelf, but if you can't get a repeat by, we're gonna have a problem. And this is what got us really excited about working with Eve and Colin is that the family owned farm.

These pecans are beautiful. And it's not just like a bag of crushed up pecans and chunks and chips. They were just these big, beautiful, glossy looking pecans in a bag that did not do them justice. So through the strategy and thinking about our consumer and how we were gonna get the bags to jump off the shelf and into carts, we knew that we needed to hero the most important piece of this brand, which was the fact that they are a family-owned pecan farm and how beautiful these big pecans are and the glossiness of them. The banana bread.

encoding the fun flavorful you know flavor profiles that do bring that piece of nostalgia and to what Eve said too we didn't want it to feel like a flash in the pan right you don't want it to feel like everyone else we're too trend focused but you do need it to feel like it's competing with everyone at the same time and that is like a fun little you know thread there that we have to make sure we are staying modern and we're targeting our audience and we're hitting the right people who need to be buying pecans on a daily basis even if they don't think they are ready.

Yet to be doing that, and then have them try them and just get so excited because it is such a beautiful product. So it's nice to have clients who are adventurous and trust the process, but we also don't like to scare our clients too. So early in the process, when we were looking at rounds and revisions and creative, we were looking from close in, things that were a little bit safer, to things that were a bit bolder and further out. And there's a lot of trust in the process that happens, but honestly, I think that's why Evie snacks and pecans are so successful.

that there was a lot of communication and trust in our creative process.

Jordan Buckner (09:53)
Yeah, I see

that really starting to stand out. So even just looking at the packaging that's here kind of through the website, you see that

big kind of glossy pecan like right front and center and I love that. So taking that key insight and really highlighting that as like, these are for individual, you know, for snacking and not a bulk bag just to crush up and put into something else. And then highlighting that fact it's from Texas, I know that's mentioned like multiple times on here to really drive it home. And then having the clear flavor call-outs within there. I think that clearly communicates that goal that you were going for. So I think that's really effective. And you know I really appreciate too

the the hierarchy and how everything's communicated. Cause as a consumer, I can see this and instantly understand what it is and what I'm getting and why I would purchase it. So that totally stands out and makes a lot of sense.

Taja Dockendorf (10:40)
Well, and the coconut oil was another important piece because of the you know, everyone talked about seed oils and other pieces, knowing that these are made with coconut oil. So again, small cues that are super important to our consumer and our target audience that they're looking for. And even on the website, you can see that the packaging

Eve Ackerley (10:46)
Yeah, internet just cut off the B2. hotspot. You have to switch to your hotspot. Okay. Yeah, it cut off and me too.

Taja Dockendorf (10:54)
doesn't have all those cute little illustrations that you can see on the front of PAC, but they do on the back. And that's always a big piece of creating a brand is creating elements that you can create the world with across web and trade show and these real just really fun moments to have people get as just as excited.

Mm-hmm.

Jordan Buckner (11:10)
Yeah, I think that's really exciting.

Jordan Buckner (11:12)
So Taja, I think that one thing that you said that really resonated with me was how brand shows up beyond just packaging when you were mentioning on the website. And so how were you thinking about the role of the entire brand, how it shows up in the world, and then also on, you know, web, social, and all these other avenues and for for Evie's and then in general as well.

Taja Dockendorf (11:31)
So what we were thinking about the packaging, and I think this happens with a lot of brands, you want to say everything on the front. You're like, we're this, we're that, we're this certification, and that certification, and also we're this, and we're from here. And you know, what you really need to do in the packaging phase is think about your consumer. What do they, you know, most people who are shopping on the shelf, you've got about a two-second attention span and you're hungry at the time of your shopping. So you really need to think what from that 50,000 foot view are they looking for that's gonna get that packaging in their cart. And you really have to be, you know, you have to narrow it all down.

What are the most important messages to that key consumer? So, in our case with Evie's, it was that this is a Texas-owned family farm. That's so important to their story. You know, the whole feel of Texas, that's something we tried to weave into the packaging as well. The other pieces are the coconut oil that the product

is made in, that they're crunchy and these delicious flavors. That was like the key piece that we wanted the packaging to resonate with. And then we knew when we got to Webb, we could blow out the Texas story.

up the illustrations we can really speak to those functions.

And then also when we started to think about trade show and other pieces that would collaborate and work with the brand, it's how they all come together. And if you've ever seen Evie's at Expo West or any of the others, they've got these great pink cowboy hats that they give out and you see people walking the trade show floor wearing them. It's all these little elements that ladder up to a really strong brand that people resonate with, but they remember. And it's that stickiness that is so important to a brand of having those moments that people recall and they're like, I remember that. They their booth was really pink and they had this great things that they were giving out.

in that cowboy hat or it comes back to the brand that's Edie's I remember them I saw their web ads or I saw their tick tocks I saw them on social media I know what they're selling those pieces are all key to having a brand that's memorable but also a brand that's timeless to because those things do last and people who have good experiences with the brand visually when they're taking it that also extends across all avenues as well so again the

Jordan Buckner (13:24)
Yeah.

Taja Dockendorf (13:25)
pack is just a piece of the meal it is not the whole puzzle but they should also each other

Jordan Buckner (13:29)
Yeah, you know, it's really interesting as well, just thinking about you know, there's that brand in terms of who you are, what you stand for, how you show up in the world. But then there's also the fact that like, you know, Evie, right? Like you're selling pecans, right? Like it's it's the product itself is great and has a great story. and so people are like, okay, I'm just gonna eat this on the go, I'm gonna snack, but I also want to feel great and kind of know that story behind it, just have a really enjoyable experience. I ex knew that as well when I was selling my product TeaSquares right? We sold tea-infused energy snacks.

And some people said like I'm not even sure if I feel the energy component from the tea, but they just taste really good. And it's like, okay, that story, you know, matters to some people and like some of the extra functional benefits in my case, but at the end of the day they just want a really tasty snack and the other things were kind of nice to have after as well. so it's really interesting.

Taja Dockendorf (14:15)
And there's something to be

said for it, something that's just fun. It makes you feel good and is just cute to look at and you're like, I love that. This looks delicious. So sometimes not everything has to be so precious. It really should just be an emotion and a feeling that the packing evokes to get it again in people's carts and then you create a relationship with the brand.

Jordan Buckner (14:33)
Yeah, you know one thing that's interesting I

Just remember, I forget which brand it was, but it was one of the larger brands like Skittles or a candy brand. And their like mission was just to bring more fun in the world. Right? Like it's very simple. It's not trying to change the world, but like more fun into people's lives. Now, I'm not a fan of their ingredients and how they go about doing it, right? Because of it's fairly unhealthy, but I think that there's something to be said about having just a very simple statement that's easy to to resonate. one thing that I want to touch on as well is how you think about

Design as a process because I know there's some packaging, just branding designs that are very like of the now and maybe considered trendy, different design elements that you put on packaging, right? I remember the whole like sticker kind of feel and appeal has been really big right now. But how do you balance that sense of creating a product that's of the now and also something that can be relevant for five plus years?

Taja Dockendorf (15:28)
And it really comes down to the strategy because we've got some clients who are like, I want it to be relevant right now. I want it to be on trend because maybe they're looking to sell in two or three years. So their their timeline's a little bit different. Then we s have others who have legacy brands that they want to create that are family-owned, that are important, that they want more longevity, and they don't want to be redoing their website in two years, or they don't want a a look that they're gonna have to redo in two years because everyone looks like them. So it's really about understanding the client's needs from the beginning and who

They want to be, where they want to be, what is that five, ten-year plan, what does it look like? And then making sure that we're designing to that, knowing that brand and packaging evolves. It is never a one and done, it is a constant evolution as you learn from your stores, from your distributors, from your salespeople. There's always evolution to be had, but if you can create a strong foundation to evolve from, that is the most important piece to keeping something that's not going to be so trend driven. And that was for us as we wanted to create a strong foundation that was bold and fun.

and playful and modern, but also allowed us a lot of growth within the brand as new products, new opportunities, maybe even new places on the shelf might evolve. So that was really key for us was creating a flexible system that worked now, but could also work five years down the line as the brand grows.

Jordan Buckner (16:42)
So, Taja, one thing

I realized is I've worked with lots of designers, some in the food and packaging world and some outside. What are some of the key differences between hiring a maybe a great visual designer versus someone who has experience working in CPG groceries specifically and learnings that you know about the packaging and how that relates to consumers and how they shop?

Taja Dockendorf (17:05)
Yeah, I mean that's a good that's a great question. I think there's there's merit on both sides. You want someone who's gonna create something that's beautiful, and freelancers can do that. But at the same time, you also want someone who's deeply rooted in understanding the strategy of the consumer and buying behavior and the psychology of good creative. And that's where you know just expertise and time happens. We are always thinking from the grocery store shelf, or we're always thinking from behind the computer, or you're gonna get hit with an ad, and then you're gonna go to the website, and what does that experience look like? So we need to make sure that the package.

Works just as hard as all those other pieces that ladder up to getting the consumer to buy. And honestly, I do think that's experience. It's it's doing it long enough. It's sitting on both sides of the table with the clients. I own my own brand as well. I understand it. I know, you know, from all sides of the cogs and how hard it is and employment, and you know, right down to how you need to move product on shelf and you know the cost of the product that's going in the bag.

Those are things that a freelancer doesn't always have experience with. So it's really that full 360 view of what it takes to run a company, but also what it takes to move a product off the shelf. And then there's also production and packaging. And you you know, so often we see beautiful, crazy packaging that is not cost-effective, and there's no way a brand could ever afford that, but they get sold on something they can't have. And that breaks my heart because it could be beautiful, but it's not realistic. So we always have to kind of bring that reality and saying, where do our cogs need to be?

What is the right vehicle for the packaging? Are we gonna, you know, does a gusseted bag make more sense because we're fun and on the go? Or do we want to do something totally different and out of you know out-of-the-box thinking? But it's gonna come with a much higher price point. And are you gonna be able to do that long term? So again, we're sitting on both sides of the table with our clients, and that just comes with years of experience. And my background is as a designer, so I get it. I want to make pretty things, but I also want to make things that last.

Jordan Buckner (18:51)
Yeah, and I even just remember like my first lesson, we had our brand name in like the very top inch of the pouch that we launched with for TeaSquares and the shelf shadow hid the brand name, right? And that's something that you never know if you just design a computer. Or even we had a an energy bar, and when you're making things like bars that have lots of folds, right? Like things get lost in the fold, something that looks flat on the computer screen is actually like at a harsh angle once it gets cut. And so those are important things to understand with design as well. So love that perspective.

I'm excited for all the results that you've had so far and excited to see your success continue. And thanks for being on Evie today and Taja for sharing that redesign story as well. I think it's so helpful for brands as they are considering their packaging design, whether it's their first time or their third, hopefully not more than that, but I know it happens. Really make sure that you understand what you stand for, who the consumers are that you're serving, and how your packaging can communicate that both to your consumers and retail buyers.

In as quickly a time as possible. Evie and Taja thanks so much for being on today.

Taja Dockendorf (19:54)
Thank you, Jordan.